Apologetics for use of /l/?

Baba Ndanyi: @⁨Lung'afa⁩ 

I am looking at your review and critical observation of the Maragoli books recently launched; I may not be a professional linguist but I can say one or two things about what makes a language rich; one thing is about flexibility as prof. pointed out, rigidity kills like the Latin went for trying to preserve originality. Evolution is the thing even in languages, but original message and meaning must be maintained. Replacing 'r' with 'l' is not the issue, it's like when a Maragoli meets a Tachoni and decide to converse in their respective Luhya dialects, we cannot attempt to correct each other, it's impossible, but they go ahead and converse, and as long as they are able to convey their messages and are able to understand each other, they will continue to talk as if there's nothing unusual. So if a writer wants to use 'l' or 'r' where non of these letters is distinct, then I think we should allow because the reader will make the distinction. A word like 'iruundu' has letter 'r' distinctly pronounced, it cannot be 'iluundu', but 'uluvaha' or 'uruvaha', any of these can do; 'illuumbi' cannot be 'iruumbi', we should allow flexibility where the two letters are not distinctly pronounced.

Luvai: Vuchee. Very well chosen examples of words with the sounds /l/ and /r/, Amitu Ndanyi. We need more examples because the frequency of particular sounds will weigh in in the 'fixing ' of an orthography. How about these: 'therre' or 'zerre' as in kilavu muno ligali; 'khayi' as in very brightly red? I suggest we  make note of these separately for future work.

Mudengani Kisia: @⁨Lung'afa⁩ What about a word like il'lumbe,  do you still insist it should be irirumbe?

Jane Bwonya: This is probably written as ilirumbe then shortened as il'lumbe. There are many such words. We have ilirogo shortened as l'logo; iliraga=l'laga; lireta=l'leta, etc. Let's talk.

I have a problem with whoever introduced /ts/ in Lulogooli. This is a Luzozo sound but we readily embraced it. It is time we made written Lulogooli current without losing our root words etc.

Doc!: Thank you for the efforts you are making. Kindly remember the Bible was translated in ul'logooli. You can use it and appreciate ul'logooli. Good morning! Sidika

Lung'afa: Bwonya, you are home. 😊. 

L'l is as a result of shortening successive r's. Only that you are still clinging to 'l' which is neither in speech or in writing. L'l is in speech and can be also used in writing, only at direct speech. 

So that it be thus; 

Rirogo; l'logo and not lirogo

Riraga; l'laga and not liraga

Rireta; l'leta and not lireta

Rirumbe; l'lumbe and not lirumbe

Think of any word with successive 'r'. You will find yourself speaking 'l'l' to get past the r rolling sound. Rarara is a hard one. 😊

@⁨Baba Ndanyi⁩ and @⁨Luvai⁩, I welcome more vocabulary that can see us reconsider and adopt 'l' in some  instances. So far I have been unable to get them. 

But for a noun as ring'al'la, what could be its source? Ng'aririra; ng'al'lira. Let me know. 

- Thanks

Sande Olocho: Language can be quite fluid:

Whereas in  "Guga" both "G's" are pronounced the same,

it does not apply for, "Gavalagi" where you find people by the name, Mujumba.

Just like "T" in "Nut" but not quite the same in "Nation"

Nobody has all the answers, but agreeing to *standardise* the *orthography* is key.

Neccy Flossy: The pre-vowels are very essential in Lulogooli. If pre-v is ignored then that word has been Kiswahili borrowed. For instance we say..

Urugina not rugina

Ikiriindwa not kirindwa

Irivadi not rivadi and so is

Ilirogo, iliraga, ilirumbe, ilimwemwenya, ilirembana, iliregana. Very important is pre-v in speech

Sande Olocho: I can see the insistence on "r" but as a teacher, I was convinced through a practical exercise.

Ululogooli, the pronunciation is lazy and not as crisp as in English or Kiswahili.

These other languages influence how we pronounce words.

Dorcas - Tokesi

Mrs. Rees - Musuluve

Elizabeth - Sabeti

I can always tell an Urbanite Maragoli and a homegrown one from Vigulu, "Sauzi"

And essentially "Nozi" and "Sauzi", we have a varied pronunciation and vocabulary.

Kindly, let us not Anglicise our Lologooli.

Relax your tongues and let us talk the language ...

Luvai: Well spoken. Lung'afa, if only you agreed that the prevalent sound in Lologooli or Rorogoori is neither /l/ nor /r/, but an in-between, you will have come closer to accepting that the widely accepted convention is to represent the rolling /l/ with a single 'l' and the related sound as in hulla for hulila with a double 'l'. May also suggest that we listen to nearby Luhya dialects to hear what a real 'r' sounds like as opposed to 'l'. 'Listen' to this line mu Lonyole hymn "ingo yanje yaralila ".

Mudengani Kisia: What of a noun like 'rung'al'la' a toad to mean. I do not think it can be expressed using the r'r. It stands alone as such, and many such words

Doc!: I just don't understand your priorities on this group. Are we having the meeting on 06th July 2019 in Nairobi? If so, can we by the end of today have the number of those attending for organisational purposes. Otherwise, we can cancel and just concentrate on writing. I don't like last minute rush. So far, I can see only 4 confirmation and yet Mr. Lung'afa indicated 30 members. What am l to follow? Sidika

Mudengani Kisia: Also true, @⁨Lung'afa⁩ Consider a noun like 'lusara', if you pronounce it carefully in a sentence the first syllabo tends more to an l rather than an r. But if you make it an r', it sounds like it has been over emphasized.

Lung'afa: Pre-vowels are good in talk, moreso when you want to show how good you are in language mastery that you can play about with words. But here we are speaking of orthography. What applies and what doesn't.

 We should know what pre-v do serve. Accent or linguistical essence?

Look at the place of pre-vowels in the following. What purpose do they serve? 

Umundu plurals to avandu

ikibiraoni plurals to ivibiraoni

ikibaga plurals to ivibaga

Umugoye plurals to imigoye

Ekemori plurals to ivimori

Umwiko plurals to aviko

We would rather drop them. 

But vowels that indicate singularity should be maintained. 

Enzoka, Isindu, Inyumba, inji etc because the vowels are later lost. 

We should also avoid the pre-vowels on uncountable nouns. 

Maganda not amaganda

Mandu not amandu

Mazi not amazi

Vuswage not uvuswage

Vosera not ovosera

- And others

Also, Maragori is a language that goes duh, vuh, suh, guh, mah, bah! 

I mean, it is scalewise a heavy language. Well spoken by people endowed with deep bass. I would want to listen over and over again. In it's slowness. No hurry.  When you come in with soprano, 'l' comes to your help. You may not manage the tempo. 

Context wise, Maragori is not a 'conflict' language. I mean, if you were to insult or rush through it in anger, it would not give you a hand. It has the spirit of meekness. Of dialogue, medium range. 

Hence being taught on softness'. 

- 😁