-: @Victoria Ndanyi
The article above takes us to Putin's question...
Did we use to bury? 😊.
Or is it so early morning to start the class?
- Thanks.
-: We have always buried the dead among the Maragoli and most Luhya people, the difference is where the internment would take place, the stone structure at Lyamagale, the Mungoma or iligono lia Mulogooli had a compartment used as a graveyard, if you were an outcast you would be 'exiled' into enemy territory where you were left to be feasted on by wild animals and especially the hyenas, that was a form of burial, because in most cases the people so 'exiled' would survive and eventually be buried in graves when they died; burning the corpse would be for one whose spirit would hound the living and it was normally done in great secrecy by one elder who would exhume the body and burn it in the middle of the night; you can read from the book on Avalogooli or the Maragoli.
-: We can't be Christians and still demonize other non-African traditions. We have lost or assimilated a lot of our African traditions we have no right choosing which ones are right and which are wrong.
-: @Baba Ndanyi
How did our forefathers dig graves when we had only imbago for digging and kiju/kisanda for scooping.
And also before imbago.
6ft by 2ft grave would be impossible...
-: By the way there used to be many caves in the time of our forefathers, there was no need to dig graves, a cave would hold many bodies; in case they had to dig a hole there were hardy trees from which they would shape an implement, also smelting iron to make implements is not a new idea.
-: This same book by Elisha Ndanyi explains that there were things called emiro/omuro which apparently were like giant versions of the ekero used to dig up potatoes. These were made from hard wood and used to dig graves. There was even a specialised lineage of the valungusia clan that dug graves. Valungusia va vaa'Miro.
-: Traditionally the dead were not buried,but thrown out in the bushes for them to eat
-: Will you throw your beloved depart in the bush to be eaten by wild animals?
-: I wouldn't but we are talking of the past. It is a thing I asked my grandparents and they confirmed it to be true
The dead were thrown away in the bush
-: Those thrown in the bush, they must have aproblem
-: Yeeah, how and one person diging in the middle of the night? This is nonsense
-: Better cremenate than thru dead in the bush. Come to think about it... Just put kiberiti on the bush all done than being haunted in thought bu imagining has thr body been eaten by hyenas
-: It was all the dead those whose remains were not eaten,a sheep was slaughtered on the scene to attract hynas if this didn't work then musambi was called to burn the body.A musambi's payment was only a kidinyiro of sorghum
-: So, why the hak are our people raising hairs at current day cremation which is a more decent form of body disposal? Allogant!!!!
-: P/s Later on ,there came a formal burial. A coffin was improvised using tsimbohelo tsie tsisiola and speargrass.the corpse was wrapped in and buried in a shallow grave
-: Here is the picture. Thanks Guga.
The dead thrown in the Bush. Cause there were lots of gulleys and trenches. Hyenas and vultures to do the extra.
So when some simple Christian comes in with some yester developments, we wonder.
Beneath burials came as a result of reduced 'evil forests'. People increasing and occupation going on. To prevent contamination, stench and all that.
Cremation is coming to solve further lack of land. 😆. And responsible dispose. Now people are saying in their wills. In future we may not need your will. We will go the environmentally friendly way. And if you have watched Soylent Green movie then we expect to recycle our bodies in future - to some food/manure/whatever.
- 😇
-: I'm surprised that even our elders in this forum are blatantly misleading us!! Lets not confuse our personal thoughts and sentiments for the true cultural practises and norms of our people.🙏🏾🙏🏾
-: @Lung'afa , if our people used to dump their dead in the bush, how come our language has a so many words that mean 'grave'? How do you explain rituals like ekeremba?!
-: About grave-digging, "Mukana niyakuzanga, kilindwa chiche chayavilwanga mulo gwi lisatsi. Kilindwa cho muyayi chayavilwanga mulo gwu lwuvu lwamela lweng'ine lutaveeye lwaasivuka Ku kitinya. Kilindwa cho mukali chayavilwanga umulo gwe lisatsi, kilindwa zana chayavangwa lovega lwe vulili. Musatsa niyakuzanga, kilindwa chiche chayavilwanga mulo gwu lwuvu lwu mugulilu gwumuchamugitsi che inyumba yeye umwene '
-: @Erick Author,
Do not be misled. Post your truths. Refer and argue them out. Refute those you doubt.
Think also in 200-400-600-800 years ago. Each century different in practices and dynamics. Unless you talking of 200yrs ago only.
- I have that book. It does not summarize everything. 😊
-: It simply means burying the dead has been with Avalogooli for hundreds of years. Besides, culture is dynamic. Nowadays we talk of eneti on the coffin. We can only learn from our cultural evolution.
-: Exactly. Definitely not something that came with Christianity as it was being implied.
-: If bodies were discarded for animals to feast on, then it might have been very faaaaaaar back.
-: Your faaaaar is next to negligible? Yaliyopita si ndwele. 😆
Issues as open air defecations are still combated...as could be new reasoning combated throwing away of corpses.
There is an article I will share in the day about the death cliffs of Nandi. Elders in their 'ripe death age' would take off to a journey of no return. Bless everything and go fall off the cliffs. Dead. I guess those who broke and did not die did die later. A responsible elderhood if you may ask me.
- Nothing is so far from anything
-: I've seen a number of documentaries on that , and articles. Now the kind of disposing that you are imposing on our ancestors was the norm with nilotic communities like the Nandi and Maasai. That is why, even to date, they don't have as elaborate mourning and burial rituals for their departed as we do. Nor do the Gikuyu who also practised the same.
-: Let's not condemn each other about our ancient burials, taboos and the like as we are all in the stage of archeological findings. Our history is coral and narratives will depend on where and who told who.Some of us are poor listeners. Some of us are rebels who created our own stories but at the end of the day we shall come up with a clear sieved document (history) so be kind to others don't panic
-: Is it a must that what I know should fit what one heard? Disposal of the dead come in many ways in different eras. Before the white man, deaths were rare and forests were more. Our ancestors left corpses for wild animals to devour. Then came the white s. Before introduction of coffins, corpses were placed in neatly arranged sticks and buried in them. Then coffins were introduced. They would be made out of rough wood and carelessly. As people advance, coffins are now designer made. My great grandchild will find a different mode of disposing the dead. So let's not assume what we know and heard is what stands. When I was young, we took food and tea to the bereaved. Now we ask where someone died to go and be feed with hired caterers. Vindu vichenjanga my friend.
-: Yeah. Some African communities. If only we could stop trying to 'fit in' and be like everyone else and conform to popular narrative. Poo.
-: Erick, where were you when all this was happening. You are even disputing your grandparents. You have shown us, you read from a book. How well did you verify the writers story. What the book told you is not what my grandfather told me.
-: I'm not in the mood of arguing for the sake of argument. It is clear that I'm quoting from the Late Nathan Luvai and Elisha Ndanyi 's books. I am confident that they were writing what they had researched about and found to be true. Wakenyaa ovoore vaari iviyingwa sana, they wrote what they didn't know??!
-: Scarcity mentality is our problem. Nathan Luvai was my dad. He called Benjamin Mahasi dad. N Ben was my grand pa. About viyingwa, that's you thinking not mine. For mood swings, save them for another day.
-: That's beside my point, which was that I am relying on written accounts of people whose credibility I am confident in. I am an award winning author and I only put down stuff that I have extensively researched on.
-: Awa mea.
Kutanga, we are yet to know who were our forefathers. It would be those maasai or nandi who have little ado about funerals.
Kaviri, what whoever writes holds water if you are discussing 'it'. Not if it comes as a piece of information to a larger theme.
Kavaga, let us not believe in little social info. Even if it promises heaven. I equally have the book. And even two others specifically on funeral. It only informs. Not moved by them.
Kumwisu, it is still a chocking feeling when one is swept off his belief/learning. Take it easy and grow.
- 😇
-: 👆🏾Heyeee, it getting hotter. Hotter, hotter in here. Is Mzee Nathan Luvai kicking!!!! Simugukaaaa... We are talking about death, burials, etc, etc. What does kusimuguka mean mu logooli?
-: For factual information I would rather rely on solid, available records. But I'm also capable of flights of fancy too...as I said, I have received awards for ivindu vyandakoonga za mutwi...it's called fiction. You can sit down, and imagine the moon is made of blue cheese and it has rivers and sugar plantations. You can feed it to whoever you may, and they could believe you...but that won't prevent it from being fiction and not fact. There's a biiiiig difference. I won't contribute further to this conversation. Amen.
-: Maybe we need a predated book titled "Kusiuva Mukuzu'
And a future one, ''Kusamba Mukuzu"
And a post future one, "Kuguriza Mukuzu"
And a 5050 book titled, "Kuvura Kukuza.'
You can amalgamate and 'fancy factually'. 😆.
-/Sweet feeling indeed
-: Erick, I remember my Grandpa telling me the origin of born fires (magenga). I don't know how you call it ivurogoori. He said, the early people around used to leave corpses in the forest. The hyenas used to feast on them. When they decided to start burying, the hyenas could not leave them alone. They could walk to the home and snatch the bodies from them and go with it to the forest. So to scare the hyenas, they started lighting ( magenga). To me this is a food for throught.
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